Q: What's this list all about?
This list is devoted solely to the study of Irish martial traditions, focusing on the Faction Fighting and cudgel play of the 19th Century. Irish wrestling and Boxing traditions are also among the welcome topics. Occasionally we will discuss other non-Irish traditions especially of Celtic origin but we always try to maintain the focus we have set for the list. [thanks to Ken Pfrenger]
Q: How do I subscribe, unsubscribe, etc.?
The usual way people Subscribe and Unsubscribe is by accessing the Yahoo Groups website and making the changes under your account but if for some reason you cannot do this or just want to do it from your email then follow these instructions:
Subscribe: bata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: bata-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
If you have any subscription problems then feel free to write the listowner at: bata-owner@yahoogroups.com
Q: What do those funky words mean and how do you pronounce them?
[Make Ken explain every single non-English word he's ever used on the list]
Q: Are you all nuts?
Yes. Next Question.
Q: Who is [x] List Member?
Stick Questions
Q: What does Bata mean?/Why not call it Shillelagh?
Bata is the modern Irish word for a stick or baton. There are many words in Irish
that were used to named the fighting sticks of the Faction and Party fighters, bata
is just one of many. It is accurate to use the term Shillelagh even though some
source claim that the word was never used in conjunction with fighting, however
there is ample evidence that it was. When we first began working on this we choose
the word bata because it was short, easy to spell and easy to pronounce and was an
accurate name for the sticks used. It is not the only name that is correct to use,
just the most hassle-free. [Ken, stop answering these. Let others have fun]
Q: What kind of stick would qualify as a bata?
A:
According to An Gu/m's Foclo/ir Po/ca Dictionary, the Irish word "bata" can
be translated to English as stick or baton. A rather vague description but
it was historically used along with several others to name the fighting
sticks of the Irish. For list purposes, when some one is talking of a bata
they are referring to a cane sized stick with or without a knob end on it. It
is usually gripped just off center and wielded overhead. [Ken Pfrenger]
Almost any "stick" that can withstand the rigors of fighting / stick
clashing but most typically a knobbed, cane sizes, hardwood stick. [Kirk Lawson]
Q: Where do I get a good stick for practice?
A: The most economical answer to this question is...Go out into the woods
and find one! Any type of strong hardwood will do fine. Ash and oak
make nice sticks and are a traditional wood that was used. These
sticks must be left to dry for as long as possible or they will begin
to split as they dry and you are using them. of course if you are only
using them for cheap practice sticks and don't mind a little bit of
cracking in them then you can skip the drying and aging process. I
personally have let some of my stick age for over a year before I used
them.
If going to the woods is not an option for you then you will have to
grab a stick through a retailer. Most Irish import shops will have
blackthorn sticks for sale. Sometimes for an outrageous price, but
often very reasonably priced. Get the stoutest one you can find. These
sticks are sometimes overdried and loose a lot of their flexibility.
Another place to pick up sticks is the internet. There are a huge
number of people dealing in Irish and Celtic imports that can find you
a stick or have them in stock. Believe it or not...Ebay is a good
place to search for sticks as well.
Q: Is there more then just one weapon in this martial art?
A: Yes there are several.......the most common being a cane sized cudgel (which doubles
nicely for a cane BTW) that can be called a Cleith Alpin. A smaller cudgel around 18
to 24 inches which is known as a Kippin. A long staff called a wattle. Various other
sticks including axe handles and Cáman (hurling sticks) which at times were known to
be wrapped in wire for added weight. [I mean it Ken. Stop.]
Q: I got a Shillelagh from a local Ren. Fest./Fair/whatever, is it any
good?
A: That is a hard question to answer without getting a good look at the stick but here
are a few things you can go by:
What type of wood is it? Woods used varied but were most often Blackthorn, Oak and
Ash....any good hardwood will work reasonably well. Soft woods such as pine should
be avoided.
How dry is the wood? Many sticks commercially sold are over dried and brittle because
of it. The wood should have some spring to it.
Does the stick have any obvious glue joints? At the Renn faire near me there is a
dealer who sells nice looking blackthorn sticks with knobs of different wood glued to
the tops. The stick portion is very nice but the heads will not hold up to the
stress of even light contact without breaking off. make sure that your stick is made
from one solid piece of wood. [Ken Pfrenger]
Q: I want to make my own Bata, what do I do?
A: There are many factors to consider when making a bata or Faction
stick. First off you must decide what the dimensions should be for
your personal preference. A good rule though is to make the stick the
same size as a cane for your height. Thickness will very....some
people like a thinner faster stick while others prefer a heavy one
with more stopping power. Others may choose something in the middle of
the two extremes. That being said...it is time to find a suitable
piece of wood. Saplings make very good sticks if you can get at least
a little bit of the root knob up without he stick...this is not always
an easy task but with a little bit of effort you can do it. Suckers on
tree stumps also make good strong sticks. Pick a good strong
nut/fruit/hardwood for the task. precut lumber is fine but will lack
the strength of the natural laminate of a sapling and it is much
harder to work with...but if you feel adventurous....
Cut the stick slightly larger at the top and the bottom so it is a few
inches longer that you need it to be on both ends. Sometimes this is
not possible on the knob end but it is a good idea to try to get as
much material as you can. Now comes the drying process. The longer the
better. Traditionally one of the ways this was done, the stick was
smeared with butter and then placed in the chimney to slow dry. Not
always a viable option for a modern stickfighter so another way is to
coat the top and the bottom of the stick with wax to slow down the
drying process. When they dry to quickly, they may very well crack.
I have dried sticks up to a year and as little as two weeks with
varying degrees of success....it's an experiment everytime :-). But
like I said the longer the better! Once the stick is dry enough then
you need to shape it. This can be done with saws and various sanding
tools. This is where the personality of the stick comes out....some
sticks look to be a bust, up until the final stage, then they start to
grow on you. The stick should then be covered with a protective
coating. Boiled linseed oil makes a nice low gloss finish for sticks.
Some people prefer the feel of shellac or even polyurethane. This is
one of those areas that is along the lines of personal preference. Do
you want a tacky feel to your stick or a smooth one. Personally I like
a little bit of a tack for better grip.
[Ken Pfrenger]
Training and Techniques Questions
Q: How do I hold a bata?
A: The standard way is to hold it two-thirds to one-half the distance from the bottom.
There is no one correct way to hold a stick. There is however a common way. Hold the
bata about a third of the way from the butt of the stick(the butt is the part that
would touch the ground if you were using it as a cane) Rest your thumb along the
shaft of the stick(your thumb is placed here to allow for more accuracy and control
of the weapon), do not wrap it around. The butt end of the stick should just about
reach your elbow [Thanks to Ken]
Q: What are the basic techniques with the Bata?
A: Some basic strikes include:
Generally strike with the ceann and block with the other end. Generally.
[annoy Ken to take pictures as well as the video]
Q: Do you have a specific curriculum?
A: There's no real "school" so everyone's training varies. [Everyone, start mentioning what you do to practice. This can be a nice large section]
Greg Maroda's solo practice:
Q: Are there any training materials I can buy?
A: Not until I force Ken to make the damn video.
Organization Questions
Q: Where can I find a school teaching Bata?
A: HA! School? Find someone near you who practices and force them to teach you. It worked for me.
Actually, there is an organization called "Cumann Bhata." More information about Cumann Bhata can be found at http://www.geocities.com/cinaet/cumannbhata.html
Q: How can I join your organization?
A: Which organization? Cumann Bhata has contact information on their webpage mentioned above. There is also the Celtic Martial Arts Research Society. Several western martial arts lists have practice partner lists. One of the best ways, is to join the bata list at YahooGroups and just ask if there's anyone in your location.
Q: What does it take to get a Black Belt in Bata?
A: Go to your local department store. Buy a nice black leather belt. Wear it while you practice so your pants don't fall down.
Q: So there is no ranking system?
A: It's still very early for a large regulatory organization to exist. Every group has their own structure. Many use the older English ranking of Scholar, Free Scholar, Provost, and Master. Some translate the phrases into archaic English or Irish forms, but the basic principle is there.
Historical Questions
Q: What's a faction fight?
A: About 1800, British newspapers started reporting the large-scale fights
that had been occurring at Irish fairs and horse races since at least the
1730s. (These fights often involved dozens, and sometimes hundreds, of
people on a side. The sides were known as factions, hence the term
"faction fights.") While frustration with foreign rule is sometimes
claimed as an underlying factor, analysis of arrest data shows that Irish
faction fighters were usually from relatively comfortable farm families
rather than the disenfranchised working poor. Furthermore, surviving
records suggest that both participants and courts considered faction
fighting as a dangerous recreation rather than riots. Thus, while 41% of
Ireland's 1,932 homicides between 1866 and 1892 were associated with
faction fighting, only 8% of the convictions resulted in sentences longer
than two years. Accordingly, Irish faction fighting may have had more to
do with relatively high numbers of unmarried adult males in a population
that drank heavily than distress over British political domination. Be
that as it may, Irish men fought using sticks and brick-sized stones
while Irish women struck using razors or stones sewn inside knitted
socks. While it was acceptable for a male faction fighter to use his
stick to parry a blow from a woman, it was considered bad form for him to
hit her with the stick. Fists and feet were another matter -- 2.5% of
deaths associated with the faction fights were the results of kicks
administered once the other fellow was down, and 5% of deaths were due to
infected bites.
[Josesph Svinth]
Q: Who is [x] historical person?
[any takers? List members, writers of some of the books, etc.]
Q: What is the history of Bata, where did it come from and where did you
learn it?
[no way am I trying to answer this one]
Miscellaneous Questions
Q: Is the Bata useful for self defense or is it just an old "sporting
event?"
A: Yes. To both. The use of a bata is excellent for self-defense as is any stick weapon. In addition, faction fighting can be seen as a fairly violent group sport. Of course, we don't advocate actual faction fights today.
Q: Can I legally carry a Bata for self defense in my area?
The following answer is opinion. Be sure to check your local laws first.
"A cane sized bata will most likely be legal for you to carry in the USA.....of
course you are going to want to check your local laws since they vary from area to
area. Metal tipped or ferruled canes are often looked upon as being more of a weapon
that a support so it is a good idea to replace the ferrule with a rubber tip if you
are planning on using it for walking in public. Also do not carry a loaded
bata(usually filled with lead) as most if not all courts would consider that a
weapon first and a cane second. A crook handled cane with a rubber tip is a good
alternative for street use. All of the techniques you can do with a traditional bata
can be done with the crook handled cane. They handle differently but it is only a
slight adjustment. Depending on the weight of the bata you like to use (I like heavy
clubs!) the power generated will most likely be different as well." [Ken Pfrenger]
Q: Isn't all this "western martial arts" stuff just Asian arts in disguise?
A: Not at all! While there are a few yahoos out there making claims of "lost arts" most of us are doing serious research. Since there's rarely an unbroken lineage, we're forced to make use of older texts and manuscripts as well as a hefty dose of trying things out.
Q: Is there a reading list someplace?
A: There is now!
Conley, Carolyn. "The Agreeable Recreation of Fighting," _Journal of
Social History_, 33:1, 1999 , 57-72.
O'Donnell, Patrick D. _The Irish Faction Fighters of the 19th Century_
(Dublin: Anvil Books, 1975)
[Joesph Svinth]
[Ken Pfrenger]
This fits in six basic strikes and improves suppleness and control.
top